Complicated rhythms

Andrew W.

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« on: 2005-12-15 08:54 pm »

I've recently been arranging a piano version of Igor Stravinsky's The Rite of Spring. It contains some of the most complex rhythms that I've ever seen. My main problem is, towards the beginning of the piece, there is an eighth note, a sixteenth note triplet, and another eighth note, all inside a triplet bracket.

Code:

I can't figure out how to make NWC play a triplet within a triplet. The Rite of Spring is filled with other complex duplet rhythms, including 10 thirty-second notes within the duration of a quarter note while simultaneously, another staff is supposed to play 7 sixteenth notes within the duration of a quarter note. I think it would be a very nice feature if NWC could make any kind of duplet that both plays back correctly, and looks good print-wise. It would save hours of changing tempos, adding layer staves, and making invisible rests so that the barlines line up.


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David Palmquist

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Re: Complicated rhythms

« Reply #1 on: 2005-12-16 12:11 am »

You can fake the playback with hidden tempo changes before and after the bigger triplet.

If you have more than one staff, to align the bar lines you'll need to shrink the bar. Use a hidden rest of shorter value, and cover it with a text entry rest sign.

Playback of the other staffs will get screwed up by the tempo change, so you may have to dot the notes in the altered tempo spot. I haven't tried it yet, but it probably requires muting the visible notes and having a sounding but hidden dotted note. That may throw bar lines out of line yet again, but you can pad with hidden rests.

In this example, the userfont3 is NWCSTDA

Code:

Hope it works for you. I think it should.


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Rick G.

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Mostly piano; some flute arranging.

Re: Complicated rhythms

« Reply #2 on: 2005-12-16 02:47 am »

Triplets within triplets. Where would it end?
Methinks Stravinsky has the bigger problem.
If this is played fast, no one will notice.
If slow, why not use a compound TimeSig?

Conceptually, I think this is easier.

Code:

Musically, this is close, although skipping the tie and muting and hiding the bnat eighth gets the point across and looks better.

Code:


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David Palmquist

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Re: Complicated rhythms

« Reply #3 on: 2005-12-16 11:28 am »

Rick, you'll have noticed that NWC doesn't seem to like having time signatures that differ on two staffs. The bar lines don't line up. One for Eric to resolve, I guess?


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William Ashworth

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Re: Complicated rhythms

« Reply #4 on: 2005-12-16 12:48 pm »

Actually, if the time signatures differ on two staves, the bar lines shouldn't line up, except at common counts (e.g., if you have 3/4 in one staff and 4/4 in another, the bar lines will correspond after every four measures in the 3/4 staff and every three measures in the 4/4 staff, that is to say, after twelve quarter notes in each time signature).


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Rick G.

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Mostly piano; some flute arranging.

Re: Complicated rhythms

« Reply #5 on: 2005-12-16 03:29 pm »

David, this must be my day for being misunderstood.

Nowhere in my post did I imply that the two clips were to be placed on opposing staves.

My comments: "Conceptually, I think this is easier." and "Musically, this is close ..." would seem to imply quite the opposite.


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Cyril Alberga

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Re: Complicated rhythms

« Reply #6 on: 2005-12-16 05:59 pm »

I beg to differ. It is not unknown for bar lines to line up with different time signatures. At a concert last night there was an example in the program notes, see here:

http://newyorkphilharmonic.org/programNotes/Mozart%20B-flat-major%20Piano%20Concerto,%20K.456.pdf
Mozart B-flat-major Piano Concerto, K.456.pdf (application/pdf Object)

I hope the long URL survives posting. This is from the last movement of K.456, and you will see that there are 2/4 and 6/8 bars treated as if they had different metranome markings (effectively, as the metranome hadn't been invented yet). In some ways it is like long sections of triplets, where the "3" is omitted, as the musician is assumed to understand why the notes don't "add up" in the different measures.


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Rick G.

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Mostly piano; some flute arranging.

Re: Complicated rhythms

« Reply #7 on: 2005-12-16 07:28 pm »

Yes and NWC2 handles this with ease.
Fire up your PIANO Template, set User 1 to NWC2STDA, Font size = <staff size> or set staff size to 18pt.
Paste the first clip into the Upper Grand Staff, and the second into the Lower Grand Staff.

Code:

Code:


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Tina

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Re: Complicated rhythms

« Reply #8 on: 2005-12-17 06:12 am »

Cyril wrote
It is not unknown for bar lines to line up with different time signatures.

Wagner does it too! Tannhauser overture.

Tina


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William Ashworth

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Re: Complicated rhythms

« Reply #9 on: 2005-12-17 11:37 am »

You guys are good!

I had debated adding something like "...unless the metronome markings are different" to my original post. Left it out and Cyril, Rick and Tina caught me on it. Yes, 6/8 against 2/4 is a convenient way of writing long passages of three against two, and it has been done that way for many years. I use the same method Rick does when writing these passages out in NWC: hidden rests and changes in tempo.

What I was thinking about were true polyrhythmic passages such as are found in Charles Ives (see, e.g., Three Places in New England).


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Adam Cuerden

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Re: Complicated rhythms

« Reply #10 on: 2006-01-06 11:23 am »

And Sullivan does it constantly, particularly in his double choruses. For instance, Yeomen of the Guard, Night has spread it's pall once more [9/8 against 3/4], Indeed, I believe that most of his double choruses are some sort of triple rhythm against a duple.


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